The mailing list for listmasters using Sympa

["stefano.antonelli@cnaf" <address@concealed>]

Dear Soji, All

>> Hi Stefano,
>>
>> I look you didn’t create list_aliases.tt2. Could you please check it?

I'm really happy and really sorry because it was my fault; I didn't 
follow the configuration for Postfix in the right way.

I copied the default /usr/share/default/sympa/list_aliases.tt2 in 
/etc/sympa/ instead of creating it as suggested here:

https://sympa-community.github.io/manual/install/configure-mail-server-postfix.html 
like this

#--- [% list.name %]@[% list.domain %]: list transport map created at [% 
date %]
[% list.name %]@[% list.domain %] sympa:[% list.name %]@[% list.domain %]
[% list.name %]-request@[% list.domain %] sympa:[% list.name 
%]-request@[% list.domain %]
[% list.name %]-editor@[% list.domain %] sympa:[% list.name %]-editor@[% 
list.domain %]
#[% list.name %]-subscribe@[% list.domain %] sympa:[% list.name 
%]-subscribe@[%list.domain %]
[% list.name %]-unsubscribe@[% list.domain %] sympa:[% list.name 
%]-unsubscribe@[% list.domain %]
[% list.name %][% return_path_suffix %]@[% list.domain %] sympabounce:[% 
list.name %]@[% list.domain %]

now I'm testing a virtual domain installation with CAS authentication.

thank you and sorry for my mistake
cheers
stefano

On 20/12/2017 10:43, stefano.antonelli@cnaf wrote:
> Hi Soji,
>
>  > I look you didn’t create list_aliases.tt2. Could you please check it?
>
> sorry, I didn't wrote it but it's there:
>
> [root@lists-dev sympa]# pwd
> /etc/sympa
> [root@lists-dev sympa]# ll list_aliases.tt2
> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1408 Dec 18 16:14 list_aliases.tt2
>
> copied from /usr/share/sympa/default/list_aliases.tt2
>
> I think it's working because I see that sympa_transport
>
> is updated
>
> [root@lists-dev sympa]# cat sympa_transport
> #------------------------------ pipp1: list alias created 18 dic 2017
> pipp1: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> pipp1-request: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> pipp1-editor: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> #pipp1-subscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> address@concealed"
> pipp1-unsubscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> address@concealed"
> pipp1-owner: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue address@concealed"
> #------------------------------ test-1: list alias created 19 dic 2017
> lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> address@concealed"
> lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1-request: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> address@concealed"
> lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1-editor: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> address@concealed"
> #lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1-subscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> address@concealed"
> lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1-unsubscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> address@concealed"
> lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1-owner: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue 
> address@concealed"
>
> and even sympa_transport.db
>
> [root@lists-dev sympa]# strings sympa_transport.db
>
> "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> pipp1:
> "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> pipp1-unsubscribe:
> "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> pipp1-request:
> "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue address@concealed"
> pipp1-owner:
> "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> pipp1-editor:
> "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1:
> "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1-unsubscribe:
> "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1-request:
> "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue address@concealed"
> lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1-owner:
> "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> lists-dev.cnaf.infn.it-test-1-editor:
>
> thank you
> cheers
> stefano
>
>
> On 12/20/2017 06:50 AM, Hatuka*nezumi - IKEDA Soji wrote:
> > Hi Stefano,
> >
> > I look you didn’t create list_aliases.tt2. Could you please check it?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > 2017/12/19 19:04、stefano.antonelli@cnaf 
> > <address@concealed>のメール:
> >
> > > Hi Soji,
> > >
> > > thank you for your answer but I still get errors from Postfix; as I 
> > > show sympa is working and sympa_transport updated when a list is 
> > > created;
> > >
> > > > I wrote it originally. Please try setting again from the first,  It 
> > > > seems that you didn’t do all described in this document.
> > > >
> > > > Note: At first you have to decide whether “virtual domain setting” 
> > > > or “single domain setting” you will carry out.  These two methods 
> > > > are not compatible with each other.
> > >
> > > yes; I've repeated the configuration again, following the 
> > > instructions. I'm testing a "virtual domain settings"; at the moment 
> > > I'm working on the "default domain"; I've tested two other virtual 
> > > domains and verified that sympa_transport is updated but mails are 
> > > not delivered to lists.
> > >
> > > these are the files in /etc/sympa/
> > >
> > > -rw-r--r--  1 root  root    348 Dec 18 13:20 transport.sympa
> > > -rw-r--r--  1 root  root    125 Dec 18 15:07 virtual.sympa
> > > -rw-r-----  1 sympa sympa   517 Dec 18 16:29 sympa_transport
> > > -rw-r-----  1 sympa sympa 23066 Dec 18 15:35 sympa.conf
> > > -rw-r--r-- 1 root  root  12288 Dec 18 16:25 transport.sympa.db
> > > -rw-r--r-- 1 root  root  12288 Dec 18 16:25 virtual.sympa.db
> > > -rw-r----- 1 sympa sympa 12288 Dec 18 16:29 sympa_transport.db
> > >
> > > this is sympa_transport updated with a new list after the 
> > > request/authorization
> > >
> > > #------------------------------ pipp1: list alias created 18 dic 2017
> > > pipp1: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > pipp1-request: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > address@concealed"
> > > pipp1-editor: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > address@concealed"
> > > #pipp1-subscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > address@concealed"
> > > pipp1-unsubscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > address@concealed"
> > > pipp1-owner: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue address@concealed"
> > >
> > > ===============
> > > Postfix:
> > >
> > > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6307 Dec 18 13:52 /etc/postfix/master.cf
> > > ...
> > > sympa unix - n n - - pipe flags=hqRu user=sympa 
> > > argv=/usr/libexec/sympa/queue ${nexthop}
> > > sympabounce unix - n n - - pipe flags=hqRu user=sympa 
> > > argv=/usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue ${nexthop}
> > >
> > > and the tail of main.cf:
> > >
> > > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 28329 Dec 18 16:20 /etc/postfix/main.cf
> > >
> > > ## virtual maps
> > > #virtual_mailbox_domains = 
> > > $mydestination,hash:/etc/sympa/transport.sympa
> > > virtual_mailbox_domains = hash:/etc/sympa/transport.sympa
> > > virtual_mailbox_maps = 
> > > hash:/etc/sympa/transport.sympa,hash:/etc/sympa/sympa_transport,hash:/etc/sympa/virtual.sympa 
> > >
> > > ## virtual maps
> > > virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/sympa/virtual.sympa
> > > ## transport maps
> > > transport_maps = 
> > > hash:/etc/sympa/transport.sympa,hash:/etc/sympa/sympa_transport
> > > ## for VERP
> > > recipient_delimiter = +
> > >
> > > These are the configurations; "test" phase works but, trying to write 
> > > to the ML I get 550 Error "Recipient address rejected: User unknown 
> > > in recipient table;"
> > >
> > > it seems that postfix looks for address in database except from 
> > > sympa_transport (just an excerpt):
> > >
> > > > > > CHECKING RECIPIENT MAPS <<<
> > > ...
> > > maps_find: recipient_canonical_maps: address@concealed: not found
> > > ...
> > > maps_find: canonical_maps: address@concealed: not found
> > > ...
> > > maps_find: virtual_alias_maps: address@concealed: not found
> > > ...
> > > NOQUEUE: reject:...Recipient address rejected: User unknown in 
> > > recipient table;
> > >
> > > perhaps it's a silly mistake in postfix but I'm not able to find it 
> > > at the moment
> > >
> > > thank you
> > > cheers
> > > stefano
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On 12/16/2017 11:07 AM, Hatuka*nezumi - IKEDA Soji wrote:
> > > > Sorry I sent incomplete reply. Again —-
> > > > 2017/12/14 21:45、stefano.antonelli@cnaf 
> > > > <address@concealed>のメール:
> > > > > Hi sympa-users,
> > > > >
> > > > > it's the first time that I write to this lists so I greet everybody.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are using sympa with virtual hosts (19 domains) and ~2100 
> > > > > Mailing lists installed from source with sendmail.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now we are installing sympa from rpm (http://Sympa-JA.org/) with 
> > > > > postfix. We are following the manual from 
> > > > > https://sympa-community.github.io/manual/ and postfix 
> > > > > "https://sympa-community.github.io/manual/install/configure-mail-server-postfix.html"; 
> > > > I wrote it originally. Please try setting again from the first,  It 
> > > > seems that you didn’t do all described in this document.
> > > > Note: At first you have to decide whether “virtual domain setting” 
> > > > or “single domain setting” you will carry out.  These two methods 
> > > > are not compatible with each other.
> > > > Regards,
> > > > > At the moment we are testing three "fake" domains and it works 
> > > > > apart from the fact that (it's not a small issue :-) ) when I write 
> > > > > to a ML I get a bounce with a 550 error "Recipient address 
> > > > > rejected: User unknown in recipient table".
> > > > >
> > > > > Has this happened to anyone or have you any idea of this? I put 
> > > > > some configurations and log files from sympa and postfix changing 
> > > > > domains and IPs. Sorry or the length...
> > > > >
> > > > > ====
> > > > >
> > > > > this is the tail of sympa.conf:
> > > > > -rw-r----- 1 sympa sympa 23066 Dec 11 17:48 /etc/sympa/sympa.conf
> > > > > ...
> > > > > sendmail_aliases /etc/sympa/sympa_transport
> > > > > aliases_program postmap
> > > > > aliases_db_type hash
> > > > >
> > > > > ====
> > > > >
> > > > > this is the /etc/sympa/sympa_transport
> > > > > -rw-r----- 1 sympa sympa 1868 Dec 14 11:35 /etc/sympa/sympa_transport
> > > > > -rw-r----- 1 sympa sympa 12288 Dec 14 12:42 
> > > > > /etc/sympa/sympa_transport.db
> > > > >
> > > > > it is updated when new lists are created e.g.
> > > > >
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-1: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-1-request: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-1-editor: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > #fake.domain1.com-test-1-subscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-1-unsubscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-1-owner: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > #------------------------------ test-2: list alias created 13 dic 2017
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-2: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-2-request: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-2-editor: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > #fake.domain1.com-test-2-subscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-2-unsubscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-2-owner: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > #------------------------------ prova-1: list alias created 14 dic 
> > > > > 2017
> > > > > prova-1: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > prova-1-request: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > prova-1-editor: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > #prova-1-subscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > prova-1-unsubscribe: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > > prova-1-owner: "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue 
> > > > > address@concealed"
> > > > >
> > > > > ====
> > > > >
> > > > > and so is sympa_transport.db (this is a "strings" command result)
> > > > >
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > prova-1:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > prova-1-unsubscribe:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > prova-1-request:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue address@concealed"
> > > > > prova-1-owner:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > prova-1-editor:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-1:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-1-unsubscribe:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-1-request:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-1-owner:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-1-editor:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-2:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-2-unsubscribe:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-2-request:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/bouncequeue address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-2-owner:
> > > > > "| /usr/libexec/sympa/queue address@concealed"
> > > > > fake.domain1.com-test-2-editor:
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not understand why these addresses are not seen by postfix; if 
> > > > > I try to execute a "postmap" on sympa_transport I get a warning:
> > > > >
> > > > > postmap: warning: sympa_transport, line 1: record is in "key: 
> > > > > value" format; is this an alias file?
> > > > >
> > > > > and I've tried even with a postalias without results:
> > > > >
> > > > > ====
> > > > >
> > > > > This is part of the main.cf file:
> > > > >
> > > > > ## virtual maps
> > > > > virtual_mailbox_domains = 
> > > > > $mydestination,hash:/etc/sympa/transport.sympa
> > > > > virtual_mailbox_maps = 
> > > > > hash:/etc/sympa/sympa_transport,hash:/etc/sympa/transport.sympa,hash:/etc/sympa/virtual.sympa 
> > > > >
> > > > > ## virtual maps
> > > > > virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/sympa/virtual.sympa
> > > > > ## transport maps
> > > > > transport_maps = 
> > > > > hash:/etc/sympa/transport.sympa,hash:/etc/sympa/sympa_transport
> > > > > ## for VERP
> > > > > recipient_delimiter = +
> > > > >
> > > > > ====
> > > > >
> > > > > qnd this is the output of a verbose postfix log (it seems that both 
> > > > > virtual_domains and recipients are not found)
> > > > >
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: >>> START Recipient 
> > > > > address RESTRICTIONS <<<
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: generic_checks: 
> > > > > name=permit_mynetworks
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: permit_mynetworks: 
> > > > > smtpauth.domain1.com 111.111.111.56
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_hostname: 
> > > > > smtpauth.domain1.com ~? 127.0.0.0/8
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_hostaddr: 
> > > > > 111.111.111.56 ~? 127.0.0.0/8
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_hostname: 
> > > > > smtpauth.domain1.com ~? 111.111.113.0/24
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_hostaddr: 
> > > > > 111.111.111.56 ~? 111.111.113.0/24
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_hostname: 
> > > > > smtpauth.domain1.com ~? [::1]/128
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_hostaddr: 
> > > > > 111.111.111.56 ~? [::1]/128
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_hostname: 
> > > > > smtpauth.domain1.com ~? [fe80::]/64
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_hostaddr: 
> > > > > 111.111.111.56 ~? [fe80::]/64
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_list_match: 
> > > > > smtpauth.domain1.com: no match
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_list_match: 
> > > > > 111.111.111.56: no match
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: generic_checks: 
> > > > > name=permit_mynetworks status=0
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: generic_checks: 
> > > > > name=permit_sasl_authenticated
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: generic_checks: 
> > > > > name=permit_sasl_authenticated status=0
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: generic_checks: 
> > > > > name=defer_unauth_destination
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: 
> > > > > reject_unauth_destination: address@concealed
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: 
> > > > > permit_auth_destination: address@concealed
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: ctable_locate: leave 
> > > > > existing entry key address@concealed
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: generic_checks: 
> > > > > name=defer_unauth_destination status=0
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: >>> END Recipient 
> > > > > address RESTRICTIONS <<<
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: >>> CHECKING 
> > > > > RECIPIENT MAPS <<<
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: ctable_locate: leave 
> > > > > existing entry key address@concealed
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: maps_find: 
> > > > > recipient_canonical_maps: address@concealed: not found
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_string: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com ~? lists-dev.domain.com
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_string: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com ~? localhost.domain.com
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_string: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com ~? localhost
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_list_match: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com: no match
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: maps_find: 
> > > > > recipient_canonical_maps: @lists-dev.domain1.com: not found
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: mail_addr_find: 
> > > > > address@concealed -> (not found)
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: maps_find: 
> > > > > canonical_maps: address@concealed: not found
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_string: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com ~? lists-dev.domain.com
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_string: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com ~? localhost.domain.com
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_string: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com ~? localhost
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_list_match: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com: no match
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: maps_find: 
> > > > > canonical_maps: @lists-dev.domain1.com: not found
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: mail_addr_find: 
> > > > > address@concealed -> (not found)
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: maps_find: 
> > > > > virtual_alias_maps: address@concealed: not found
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_string: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com ~? lists-dev.domain.com
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_string: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com ~? localhost.domain.com
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_string: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com ~? localhost
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: match_list_match: 
> > > > > lists-dev.domain1.com: no match
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: maps_find: 
> > > > > virtual_alias_maps: @lists-dev.domain1.com: not found
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: mail_addr_find: 
> > > > > address@concealed -> (not found)
> > > > > Dec 13 17:42:31 lists-dev postfix/smtpd[6733]: NOQUEUE: reject: 
> > > > > RCPT from smtpauth.domain1.com[111.111.111.56]: 550 5.1.1 
> > > > > <address@concealed>: Recipient address rejected:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > thank you
> > > > > cheers
> > > > > stefano